EPISODE 2:
“The Bitter and The Sweet of Harmful Treatments” with Heather McCarthy and Lee & Charlie Ford

Today Heather is in Vancouver and we interview Lee’s daughter, Charlie, about her experience being poisoned with fluoroquinolones. She discusses the impact it had on her life, the challenges she faced, and how it encouraged her to pursue a degree in medicine.

TRANSCRIPT

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LEE: Awareness is power.

HEATHER:  And it can save your life.

LEE: Welcome to our podcast, “Know Risks.”

HEATHER:  I’m Heather.

LEE: And I’m Lee. We’re two moms, a lawyer and a nurse, who were brought together by a misfortune. Both our children were harmed by adverse drug reactions.

HEATHER: The purpose of this podcast is to educate people on the risk of any health treatments you put in or on your body.

LEE: We feel if we’d been properly informed and been our own experts, our children would not have been harmed.

HEATHER: In today’s world, with medicines being incentivized for profits, you need to educate yourself. Know the risk of health treatments and it can protect yourself and your loved ones from being harmed.

LEE:  Welcome to today’s podcast, “The Bitter and The Sweet of Harmful Treatments.” Today Heather is in Vancouver and we will be interviewing my daughter, Charlie, about her experience being poisoned with fluoroquinolones. She’ll discuss the impact it had on her life, the challenges she faced, and how it encouraged her to pursue a degree in medicine.

LEE: Hi.  Thank you for joining us again today.  Today we’re really lucky to have Charlie with us.  I’m sure a lot of you have heard us talk about Charlie in our podcasts and how she was harmed by the fluoroquinolones and was part of the reason, along with Heather’s son Shea, that got, you know, us going on this journey.  

So when Charlie had that medication she was only 13, and at the time I really had to protect her from a lot of the information, but over the years she’s kind of grown more wise and done her own research and has actually even helped people that have reached out to her on social media.  But I think a lot of you may have heard from our previous podcasts that Charlie and I really owe everything to Heather and her son Shea, because what happened to him — and he’s not with us today — but that story and Heather being at the FDA getting the warnings on these fluoroquinolones is kind of — gave Charlie and I — mostly me — credibility in fighting the journey for Charlie and recognizing that it actually wasn’t an adverse reaction to the fluoroquinolones when we were being told by numerous people that it couldn’t be because she’d already finished taking it. 

And so Charlie, you know, we’re here today and it would be really great if you could just think back to — maybe give us a little bit of history on, like, how you felt at that time, what you remember.  I know you were young and I know that it’s kind of evolved, but maybe just start off by telling us back then what you remember.  

CHARLIE:  I remember, like, right after getting the medication the next couple nights I was, like, having really weird dreams and feeling really weird when I was sleeping, but I couldn't really describe the feeling and I thought it was just because I was fighting the infection. And then I remember going back to swim practice and doing backstroke and all the sudden my elbows were literally in so much pain; like, I had never had that pain before, in my joints before, and I was so confused, but I thought, oh, maybe it’s because I haven’t swam in awhile.  Like, I didn’t know.  But I remember being in the car and telling my friend, like, I think I have bone deficiency; like, my bones hurt; like, why do my bones hurt?  And I didn’t know.  And then I remember I went home and, like, told my mom and then I think she googled it and she saw, like, everything single, like, warning, everything about it, but she didn’t tell me and she, like — and then I think that’s when she realized, like, oh, my god, like, this was the medication, and then I think, like, I was so young I didn’t really know what was going on; I was like, oh, my goodness, like —

HEATHER:  How old were you at this time?

CHARLIE:  I was 13.

HEATHER:  Thirteen.

CHARLIE:  Yeah.  So I didn’t — and I remember you telling me not to google it so I just never googled it.  But I just remember being like — I think, like, just sad because I wanted to swim and get back to swimming and I couldn’t.  And then, like, over the next few months I just remember, like, going to, like, countless — I think, like, the worst part of the whole journey was going to the hospital and, like, being told that it was in my head and that I wasn’t — that either I was crazy, my mom was crazy, or, like, I have some sort of other, like, arthritis or some sort of other disease that I did not have, which was just really frustrating trying to, like, go get help and then they don’t even believe that you have a problem in the first place.  I remember, like, going to, like, countless doctors’ offices after school, countless, like, appointments after school and not going to swimming.  I remember my friends, like, texting me, like, are you alive?  What’s going on?  (Laughs.)  And I’m like, I don’t really know what’s happening but I’m getting better, but it was, like, a long six months, I would say, of, like, a lot of suffering.

LEE:  I remember you — one of the things that Charlie experienced was that she was so scared to stay home alone and I couldn’t figure it out, and you would wake up all night and be “I can’t sleep,” “I’m scared,” “I’m scared to be in my room,” and we didn’t know what you were scared of.  I kept asking you, what are you scared of?  I thought it was maybe because she was in so much pain, you were scared of that, but — 

CHARLIE:  No.  It was literally just, like, I remember, like, lying on the couch and you would be like, I’m just going out.  It’s, like, the middle of the day and I would just, like, have, like, so much fear that something bad was going to happen, but I didn’t know what.  

HEATHER:  And maybe at that age — because I know Shea complained a lot about anxiety and maybe — you know, at a younger age it manifests —

LEE:  But she couldn’t explain it that way but now, reflecting back and knowing that that was one of the warnings or indications, it definitely makes sense; that’s what she was experiencing was it was another side effect of the drug.  I thought it was a reaction to the pain she was having, but it was definitely you were having a side effect of the drug with this fear that you couldn’t explain to me.

CHARLIE:  I just remember being really scared.

HEATHER:  Yeah.  I just can’t imagine because — and I just want to go back a little bit because we talked a little bit — Lee had mentioned, you know, fighting to get these label changes and, you know, it wasn’t just a single effort; there were so many people who have been harmed.  And one of the things that they really echo, just like Charlie does, is just as a victim who’s actually experiencing this, if you could just imagine how confusing and afraid — you know, and I know that causes even more anxiety from the anxiety you’re having from the drug. But then to put on top of that, as you mentioned, going to health care providers, going to doctors, and having them essentially not believe you, I mean, that’s humiliating because you’re afraid, you know?  And, you know, they don’t believe you.  And, you know, thank god for your mother, Charlie, because, you know, what happened to Shea and a lot of the people I’ve spoken to who fought so hard to get the labeling and create awareness of this is not getting kind of pushed into the mental health system because that is a system I know in the United States where it’s heavily dependent on medications.  And if you’re having a toxic reaction to a medication, that needs to be addressed before other medications are put on it.  In my son’s case, which of course ended up being fatal, it was when he experienced some of the things Charlie’s talking about with us, he was just given more pills on top of that, which really increased the toxicity he was having — we know that now — from the Levaquin.  So just how fortunate you are to be here and doing so well.

LEE:  We were fortunate to not end up in the mental health, and I think it could have easily have gone that way.  If we would have seen just one more doctor, it could have gone that way.

But there were numerous doctors that wanted you to be on anti-inflammatories and steroids and —

CHARLIE:  Every time we went in there, they’re just like, oh, just take some Advil.  

LEE:  And steroids too —

CHARLIE:  And steroids.

LEE:  — which is counterproductive, we learned.

CHARLIE:  But the whole thing that we learned is OK, so the Advil is just going to stop the pain temporarily, but — and in this case, luckily we didn’t because it would have made it 10 times worse.  But why was I having this pain?  They didn’t want to uncover that; they just wanted to treat the symptoms.  And luckily, you were perseverant and said no, we’re not taking those.  We actually, like, figured out what was wrong.

HEATHER:  Yeah, and that’s the key in all this, is not just treating a symptom with another, in this case, drug treatment, rather than getting to the root of the problem and trying to address that. 

So what I think would be excellent for all our listeners is, you know — I know you two went to great lengths — Lee did — to get treatment to address the toxicity, and I was just wondering if either you or Charlie can kind of talk about that.  I know it took quite a while to get to the point where you were feeling back to yourself, years in fact, but can you both just kind of talk a little bit about how — what that process was like?

LEE:  Do you want to talk about that or —

CHARLIE:  I remember, like, we went to some naturopaths and then finally they started, like, having the right direction and then we went to another — like a functional medication doctor and he had dealt with patients who had had this before and so I started getting, like, IV vitamin C, IV glutathione, IV vitamin B, and IV magnesium, all things that were, like, going to help, like, my body with the toxicity.

LEE:  Yeah, I mean, we’re not going to advocate what worked for Charlie for everyone; you do need to see your own health practitioner.  But one of the things that, kind of, I learned early on was that the magnesium in the very beginning is so important because it actually will help to draw out the fluoroquinolone so it kind of counteracts, so much so that on the labeling of the medication it says don’t take it with magnesium because it won’t work as well.  So that was one of the things, and I think it works mostly if you catch it early on, which immediately — I mean, it wasn’t immediately because she just finished a full course of it, but within a day or two of her stopping and then realizing, connecting all the symptoms, we did get her on this magnesium, high doses of magnesium.  And I think that that really did help her.  But the journey has been mostly holistic with supplements and vitamins. 

And I think this came out in the European medical union meeting where a lot of people spoke out about the fluoroquinolones and their experiences — [to Heather] similar to the FDA hearing you were at — is that they get worse when they eat certain food, especially meat.  And I guess 80 percent of the world’s antibiotics are fed to our livestock, so the likelihood of having, like, a setback with your fluoroquinolone toxicity is really high if you’re eating non-organic meat that has potentially been given those antibiotics, because you’re getting another dose again.  And, you know, certain people obviously are more susceptible.  It is a harmful drug to everyone but different people will sometimes react on the first pill; sometimes it takes a couple pills.  Sometimes people have had a course of it and then it’s the second course.  It does vary per person, but, you know, in the end, it’s a really, really dangerous drug.

HEATHER:  Yeah, and I think that’s an important part, especially in the United States with much of our meat coming — probably the majority — from factory farming.  You could almost be assured that they’re using fluoroquinolones in the livestock, and that was something I was shocked also to see, you know, that there’s an awareness of that in Europe that there’s not in the States, if you’re trying to, you know, address that issue.  

LEE:  Yeah, I actually think it came up as one of the recommendations in the European Union to not have that meat because it has been connected and there was enough people that made that connection.  

CHARLIE:  Isn’t it illegal in certain countries already to feed their animals antibiotics and hormones?

LEE:  Yeah.  I think one of the better ones — and I’m not an expert — is New Zealand.

HEATHER:  In the States — (laughs) — we have a long way to go.

LEE:  I mean, so one of the things that we did — and it’s not been a cheap journey.  I will say that we had — I mean, you just — if we had to do whatever we had to do to get the money to make Charlie well, that’s what we were going to do.  And the supplements are very expensive.  The functional medical doctors, unfortunately, they’re all private. And the food is expensive.  It’s expensive to eat that organic meat.  And she also, because of her gastrointestinal issues, she had a lot of issues with that so she couldn’t — we couldn’t go on dairy, gluten, grains.  She was on a very, like, basic diet, really, to try and heal your gut.  We did do some stool testing that kind of showed the healthy bacteria, certain ones, strains, had been completely wiped out in her gut, which explained a lot of the stuff that she was experiencing. 

HEATHER:  Yeah, I know Shea had tremendous difficulties, digestive issues, you know, manifesting in all kinds of just horrific other symptoms in the body.  It’s like when one system is messed up, you know.  He also had a lot — developed a heart arrhythmia, which is very, very, very common.  

Just to, you know, go back to him a little bit, you know, it was so fortunate that Charlie had her mother to help navigate this for her.  You know, in Shea’s case he was a young man in college but really just connected the dots on his own, you know, and looked it up.  It was just so unfortunate for him that it’s so difficult to get people to listen to you and, you know, to really address the issue.  I know just about everyone got — Shea had tried to discuss this with.  Even us as his family said, talk to your doctor, you know?  I know all this stuff now but I didn’t back then. But how, you know, fortunate Charlie was to have that support system.  And one of the most important things, you know, that you said — because I know treatments can be specific and you really have to seek out — we’re not promoting one or the other, but the most important thing that you need to do — and if this doesn’t happen, you need to walk out and get away from that care provider. And what Charlie said — they finally found people who listened to them, you know, who said, you know what, this is right, you know?  You know, Charlie knew something was wrong; she was able to connect it to the drug even at that young age.  Her mother connected the dots.  You know, we really need health professionals, especially doctors, to educate themselves about the drugs they’re giving out and what the potential side effects are, because I think the epidemic — you know, we talk about different treatments and the dangers of them in many of our — you know, that’s our primary topic here, but just the fact that it’s so hard to even have them acknowledge. 

So the first step, I think — and I think that that would have really changed the course of what happened to my son Shea — is if someone would have just — a health care provider would have just acknowledged —

LEE: Listened.

HEATHER: — this is it; you’re right. Even just for his own — you know, just that sense of desperation from not having that validation.  “This is what’s going on”; “I don’t have bipolar disorder”; “I don’t have generalized anxiety,” you know? “I have a reaction from my treatment; a drug made me sick; you know, what are we going to do about it?”  That might be individualized but just getting to that gateway, to open that conversation, could help so many people.  

LEE:  Well, I agree, and I do remember one incident — do you remember that, Charlie, when we were at the children’s hospital here and I know it’s part of their protocol, but they actually asked me to leave the room and they were asking you — do you remember what they were asking you?

CHARLIE:  They were asking me, like, is your mom making you take these supplements?  Is your mom doing this?  And they were, like, questioning if I had an eating disorder and, like, all this random stuff.  And then I was like, no!

LEE:  Yeah, that was one doctor.

HEATHER:  Blame the parent, you know?  Blame the parent.

LEE:  Charlie lost a lot of weight because she wasn’t actually — what we found is she had, you know, gut issues, so she wasn’t absorbing any nutrients from the food that she was eating so she lost a lot of weight.  And one doctor that we saw — (laughs) — met her once and just because she was under weight —

CHARLIE:  Wrote it in my chart.

LEE:  — wrote, “should be worked up for an eating disorder.”

HEATHER:  And that stays in her record forever.

LEE:  It does. And the only reason I know that is because we actually went down a legal lawsuit and we actually had to request those. It was actually appalling what was written in those medical records.  But the other thing that I was going to mention is a lot of people are harmed for a really long time with this medication.  It’s actually a known disability now in the U.S., the fluoroquinolone-associated disability.  But there are people that get better, and the way to get better is by not adding more drugs and, you know, trying to do things really clean, not having another load of toxins on your body. And so, had somebody listened to Shea and so many others that have lost their lives because of this, it’s because they weren’t heard and the wrong things were, you know, were being done.  Not saying that that’s the case for everyone because I know there’s people that do all this and I have talked to some of them — they’ve done everything and they’re still suffering; it is just horrific that, you know — but in his scenario I do unfortunately believe that had he been heard, like you said, you know, it could have been a different fate for him.

HEATHER:  Well, yeah, and it’s a lot — you know, if you can imagine, you know, going — Charlie, you know, going through what you went through, having all these strange things happening in your mind and your body, and telling people and no one believing you. You know, I didn’t get my son’s medical records till after he had passed away and it was just very — it was just devastating to see — I could hear him telling, you know — like, it was in the notes, you know.  I had trouble breathing.  It’s always there, you know, in the allergies.  It’s the Levaquin.  You know, he’s saying it. And it’s in all of them.  And no one — no one — even listened, you know, to even explore that. And he also — it was put in his records, very common — that he had an eating disorder.  He didn’t have an eating disorder.  He couldn’t eat.  You know, this does such devastation to the gut that, you know, you don’t even want to eat.  You know, I just remember it was so hard —

LEE:  And you’re not absorbing the nutrients as well.

CHARLIE:  I would eat anything and I would look six months pregnant.  

HEATHER:  Yeah.

LEE:  Oh, yeah, you were thin but you would be so bloated. 

HEATHER:  Constipation.  I mean, it’s just horrible, you know, what these drugs can do to you. And, you know, I think in both Charlie’s case and my son’s case, you know, if you sit down and read the labeling, which our doctors should be obligated to do — you know, if you’re going to prescribe this, know what you’re prescribing.  But these are heavy-duty drugs.  This is for anthrax exposure, exposure to the plague, very serious pneumonia.  You know, for my son it was a prophylactic. You know, in Charlie’s case it was a very minor issue that could have been, you know, handled probably topically, you know?  She had some issue on her foot; could have been athlete’s foot, you know?  This is not something you give this heavy-duty drug for, and it’s just really — still, it’s just unbelievable that someone who has a knowledge of medicine — I just can’t believe that a doctor who had actually sat down and looked at the labeling and did a little research, you know, maybe a few minutes on Google, would even want to take the risk of prescribing this drug, especially to a young person.  My son was 18, you know; Charlie was 13.  This is just madness, you know?  And all the lives and all the young people, the elderly people who take these drugs who end up in the mental health system, is there really a mental health issue or is this a treatment-induced, you know, illness?

LEE:  Well, I think too we had two younger, healthy —

HEATHER:  Yes, healthy.

LEE:  — individuals, so I know that was Charlie’s scenario in our lawsuit, is that she went from being a top athlete, perfectly healthy, to, within, you know, days of starting this having symptoms.  But if you were an elderly person — and I do know a friend that’s a doctor that had been prescribing these medications, but in a scenario it was always elderly, and has since stopped.  But their symptoms, like, a lot of the symptoms, could be attributed to old age, like confusion, anxiety —

CHARLIE:  Joint pain.

HEATHER:  Dementia.

LEE:  Joint pain —

HEATHER:  Yeah, arthritis.

LEE:  Heart issues — I mean, all those things.  Are they going to be heard, you know?  So yeah, it’s — something needs to change.

HEATHER:  We really need to reexamine this and we really need to also do a screen when someone comes in and there’s a diagnosis to be made.  And don’t get me wrong; you know, doctors may make their initial diagnoses and go with that, but when it becomes obvious that the patient is not getting better, you know, that it becomes obvious the treatment is actually destructive, our health system has a really hard time acknowledging that, and it has to be some underlying illness, as opposed to the drug or the treatment, you know?  And that’s what so frustrating about this, and like I said, I just can’t imagine what Shea went through, you know, providing all of this — his care providers had an exceptional opportunity with him because he was so interested in his health and so insightful about what was going on with him — similar to Charlie; he was just a little older.  They could have learned so much about how to treat this, because, quite frankly, we still don’t know, you know?  It was fortunate for Lee and Charlie that they were able to find some providers, and some treatments had some really positive effects, and she was able to get back on the road to health because of her resilience, you know, and her starting point, which was such a healthy young person.  

LEE:  And I think too, one of the things that helped Charlie, unlike so many others, is that she was protected from all the negative information that I was learning and reading, and I feel awful for the people out there that are, you know, independent individuals.  One girl I know that I was connected with in Germany and they lose their jobs and they lose their houses or source of income.  They have to — they’re sick, and then they have to try and advocate for themselves and they’re not believed — 

HEATHER:  A lot of times their families don’t — you know what I mean?  

LEE:  Yeah, and they have to read — I didn’t sleep for months.  If I wasn’t caring for her, I was researching, researching, talking to people.  The stuff I read of people being crippled into wheelchairs or, you know, all kinds of mental health, like anxiety and stuff, I had to protect her from that and I do believe that that negative information will impact people from healing as well, because they’re having to deal with the whole thing.

CHARLIE: Everything on their own. 

LEE: I was able to alleviate some of that burden for Charlie; she didn’t have all that.  All I told her was, you know, this has happened and, you know, out of this we’re going to learn so much about being healthy and you’re going to be stronger than ever and you’re going to get better; it’s just going to take time.  

HEATHER:  Yeah, and I just want to point out for both of our kids — and again, you know, hindsight’s 20/20; I didn’t have knowledge of this while my son was suffering as he was, because we just — this information is just not readily accessible until, in most cases, something happens to yourself or someone in your family that gives you that awareness to start digging.  But even, you know, when I did a FAERS request for the FDA in the United States, the Food and Drug Administration, the adverse event reporting, you know, my son’s symptoms and pretty much now the black box warning, just read like a road map for exactly what we went through, and Charlie too.

LEE:  Oh, yeah, it’s true.

HEATHER:  I mean, you just see the reports, and we know those are underreported.  But anxiety, the digestive issues, the joint issues — I mean, what motivation — you know, I just want to ask health care providers and doctors: What motivation would someone have to fabricate all this?  You know what I mean?  

LEE:  Yeah.

HEATHER:  It just doesn’t even make sense.  I mean, why is this such a threat to the health care industry?  I think that’s one of the most important questions we really need to ask ourselves.  Why is this so hard to believe people?  You know, we have people self-reporting it.  We’ve met  a host of people on our journey who have been fighting this for years.  I mean, this has been going on, you know, 25 years.  And my son should be alive because no one listened to them, you know?  It just— we can’t get it out there and we need to really — I have a pretty good theory about why it keeps happening.  I think a lot of it has to do with profits and incentivizing different sorts of treatment.  But then you look at that at the level of your doctor-patient relationship, you know, and you wonder — do you want to be that jaded?  Like, is it really that perverse?

LEE:  Well, I think the problem is, you know, the information is not getting to a lot of these doctors.  I know that they have an obligation to keep up and, you know — but I don’t think that the — and I know that there’s something that one of the doctors that we’ve just had on our podcast, that’s going to be coming, is trying to make change on that, you know? 

HEATHER:  Signed informed consent, but what you have to remember, Lee, also, though, is that in Charlie’s case and in my son’s case, they told their doctors.  They told them.

LEE:  That’s true.

HEATHER:  So even if, like I said, the doctor doesn’t want to — you know, “I don’t think that’s the diagnosis; I’m going to go with what I think is right,” you know, people suffering from this are not going to fare well when other medications are piled on top of it; they’re going to continue having these problems and they’re probably going to be magnified.  But we still have an industry — and I can only speak about the States because that’s, you know, that’s been my experience — that just really — there’s a real resistance to acknowledge that an actual treatment can harm you in this way, even though all the evidence is laid out right there for us.

LEE:  Yeah.  

CHARLIE:  Yeah, that’s true.

HEATHER:  So I think we should talk about — now is a great lead-in because I’m so proud of her — 

LEE:  I know.

HEATHER:  — about why this story is just so wonderful, and for all the loss that my family experiences and, you know, how difficult it was to kind of, after grieving a son, try to do this direction because I really — it was very difficult.  You know, we’ve talked about pursuing lawsuits and just trying to get some justice and it’s made the whole grieving process have to take kind of second chair.  But hearing Charlie’s story really made that all worthwhile, so if Charlie can kind of share what she’s doing with her life now and what she’s going to be in the future.  (Laughs.)

CHARLIE:  OK.  So basically after, like, this whole journey happened, I was like my number one thing was, like, I don’t want anybody — I don’t want this to happen to anybody else and I don’t want anyone to walk into a doctor’s office and feel that they can’t share what’s going on or, like, they can’t — the doctor’s not going to believe them, and so that — it kind of really inspired me and then also, like, the journey of healing through natural things as well kind of inspired me.  Like, I really want to be a doctor that looks at everything and looks at the root cause of everything and not just piling on medications but also looking, OK, why do we need — why?  What’s going on in your body in the first place?  How can we help heal you naturally?  And then if we need medications, OK, but let’s look at the side effects, let’s look at your genetics, let’s look at everything before we make a treatment plan.  So I did apply to a direct-entry medical program in Australia — 

HEATHER AND LEE:  Yay! 

CHARLIE:  — and I got in.

HEATHER AND LEE:  Yay!

HEATHER:  And she’s in it now.  Yay!  (Laughs.)

CHARLIE:  Yes.  So I’m in that program now and I’m really, really excited and there’s so much learning to be had but I’m just on the beginning of my journey in this, but I’m very excited to be —

HEATHER:  You will be my doctor one day.  (Laughs.)  I guarantee you that. 

But yeah, that’s really what it’s all about; it’s taking this, you know, and I just really want to acknowledge — and I know that Lee’s met so many people too — you know, just the importance, the importance of why we’re doing this podcast, the importance of sharing the stories, no matter how hard it is, because they save people’s lives and we have to get rid of — you know, past this idea that just because I might not have — you know, Lee has a medical background.  I don’t; I’m a lawyer.  But, you know, we can read, we can talk to others, we can identify with others’ experiences and know symptoms and, you know, we can do our own research.  Do we need doctors?  Absolutely, yes.  But we need more that are going to be the type that I know, most definitely, Charlie’s going to be.

CHARLIE:  It’s a relationship with a patient and a doctor; it’s not like the doctor’s telling you what to do; it’s really like a collaborative experience on your health, is what I believe.

HEATHER:  And that is what is at the heart of informed consent, and that’s another topic that we really talk about.  But if you don’t have that relationship, there is just no way possible that informed consent can happen.

So I’m so proud of you, Charlie. (Laughs.)  So proud.

CHARLIE:  Thank you.

LEE:  Thank you for being with us today.

HEATHER:  Yeah.

CHARLIE:  Thank you.

LEE:  We’re going to have you again in the future; we’re so proud of you.

HEATHER:  Definitely.

LEE:  Yes.

Anyways, thank you for joining us.  Check us out on some of our other podcasts and our website at knowrisks.org.  And, yeah, we’re just so thankful for all our listeners.

HEATHER:  And thankful that Charlie’s with us today.

CHARLIE:  Yay!  Bye. 

LEE:  Bye.

Thank you for joining us today on this episode of “Know Risks,” and remember, being your own expert is the best way to prevent yourself or your loved one from being harmed.

LEE: And please join us for future podcasts and help support us by subscribing, providing some feedback, and of course giving us a five-star rating. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram at knowrisks, and check us out on website at knowrisks.org, where you can read our stories, suggest future topics, and share your stories.

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